[1]The C64 Community Loading... This site is best viewed in a modern browser with JavaScript enabled. How about a C64 "app store"? rldipaolo Would it at all be possible to create a C64 "app store", where programmers could distribute C64 programs of their own creation - either for free or for a fee (just like real app stores)? And not just games (although I expect this would be the majority), but any kind of programs as well. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arduinux Awesome idea! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment If majority of people here attempt to connect with actual Commodore 64 community that has been here all along, they'll know there is a ton of resources and venue to connect and distribute games and applications. A good 90% of the active Commodore 64 users are already on many of the forums. I have pointed to some resources already in the thread about Emulators and resources. We don't need a so called "App Store" to connect to the Commodore community and distribute or sell games. Most free games and demos are posted on CSDb site: [2]http://csdb.dk/ and other sites. In addition, if you post on forums such as Lemon 64 and other forums for Commodore 64 in appropriate section of the forums, you can effectively self-publish your games and apps. It must be kept in mind that you shouldn't expect to make a big living from the C64. In the future, if the community size merits an "app store" then sure. App stores don't come free. It costs money to run and operate and like many app stores, it has to be monetized effectively and a lot of times, this comes from either ads or charging developers a fee or some percentage of proceeds via what is essentially a Software Distribution Agreement or both. Developers for Commodore 64, these days, don't do it for the money so you may run into problems. I'm not opposed to it but how hard really is it to go to any of these sites and download the games? A person who has any hope of understanding how a Commodore 64 even operates is going to have to have a little more know how and tenacity to do things without having to be hand held and spoon feed everything with absolute zero labor. You can't even learn BASIC without having self initiative. Finding C64 games, downloading them, and running them is easier than writing a program more complicated than a "hello world" in BASIC. If anyone has hope in making a C64 game, they better have a little bit of self-initiative to learn and do things. It's not rocket science guys. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- rldipaolo [3]ReflectedLightEntertainment You don't get it. An app store would be for newly developed games/utilities/programs, not existing ones. Also, I've been part of the "C64 Community" for a very long time. You aren't telling me a single thing that I don't already know - you are simply expressing your contrary opinion, and for exactly what purpose I'm not sure other than maybe to show others what you know and they don't (which in my case is a very incorrect assumption). And by saying "it's not rocket science guys" you are being a bit condescending assuming a position of superiority over others on the forum. Please be more sensitive to others and not so fast to jump to the conclusion that you understand what others do not - in this case you made wildly incorrect assumptions about what an app store would be for - and obviously spent alot of time and effort typing it in. I've noticed some of your other posts take the contrarian point of view - which you have a perfect right to do but it gives the impression that you are trying to "shoot holes" through the idea of the C64 Mini, or at least what others have to say on the subject - which instead of making you look knowledgeable mostly likely generates resentment. Please try to be a bit more sensitive in your posts and don't automatically assume that you know more or better than others here. Thank you. [4]:) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [5]rldipaolo It's called CSDb. You upload it there or you put it on your own website. You tell the Commodore community on the forums where to download it. It isn't like there are a million people looking for this stuff. It isn't like you're going to be making a living developing games for the Commodore 64 or THEC64 MINI because all it's offering as a product is a C64 emulator. The point is, no one makes Commodore 64 software these days are clamoring for this device or see the THEC64 Mini as anything special or see any need to have to have one. We who do develop software and apps already has the emulators on our PC and already knows how to distribute to the 5000 to 10,000 Commodore users around the world. At any given time, you're lucky to sell maybe 500 or maybe a little more than 500 copies. You are more likely to sell maybe 50 to 200 copies. It's sufficient enough to connect with people who want new software through the forums, IRC channels, and so forth. I have been making Commodore games and software since the 1980s. Albeit, less often now than back in the the 1980s. Why? You don't expect to make a living on a 35 year old computer that the original manufacturer had been bankrupt since 1994. Over 20 years. It costs a lot of money to make an App store, not to mention if there is any form of paid medium, there's this whole thing about software distribution agreements that you need to have legally written and signed as well as portions of profits from sales retained for operational maintenance of such an app store as well as making sure those people whom you are distributing their software.... getting their due pay from the sales. If the app store is selling software, there are legal stuff that has to be setup. It becomes a commercial operation with real human resource labor costs to manage because in order to do it, there has to be employees. I question the need because most of the sales of THEC64 is going to be from people who aren't interested in new C64 games. They're interesting in nolstalgic memories of their old favorites. No one or at least nearly no one uses a Commodore 64 for serious stuff in 2017. We're way past that point. It's not like the THEC64 Mini is going to be something millions of people are going to be using daily even 6 months after they bought the unit. How long before they stop playing and then put it in the closet or garage? How long before it's up for the next yard sale or donated to a treasure sale at a local church or non-profit? It's not the kind of product people are going to use regularly unless they break from the emulator and use the product for something more serious like running a serious operating system and run real day to day kind of stuff. How many of these 'consumers' are going to do that? What percentage of the sales would be those kinds of users? If people are too lazy to download their own collections of C64 games from the various website and run it in an emulator what hope do they have in learning LOAD"*",8,1 to load and type RUN to run the software let alone create a game or app for C64? I trully hope people aren't that lazy. Those who creates C64 software already knows how distribute their software for the Commodore 64. It's not like we get that many new software developers. Most of us have known how to do this and been part of the C64 software development for over 10 years. You don't just learn how to program ML in one night and over the weekend and make a C64 game of commercial quality. If I make a game for C64, all I need to do is post it on the C64 forums where Commodore users gather and provide a URL. I can have my own online store for people to purchase games that they have to pay to get. I can even make games using real cartridges.... probably won't work on THEC64 but will on a real C64. It's more than likely to be freely downloaded because before long, someone will upload your commercial C64 software on to the internet and sales will likely sharply decline after that point. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment In short, we don't have a large enough community of C64 users around the world that warrants an App Store. When you have an app store like the one from Apple or Google's Play Store, you're going to need customer service representatives, technical staff for managing the store site and developer relations personnel. This cost money. We don't make enough money on C64 software these days. You don't make a living. It's now more a part-time gig... kind of a hobby than where we make our real income. We make our real income through jobs or making software for modern computer systems. One free game that I did the gfx for has had over 800 downloads (from it's original file) and a little over 400 from the 'crack' copy by Famine. Bottom line, that's over 1200 downloads of the game from CSDb site. I do not have data from the Gamebase 64 site but so what. Point is, we already know how to get games out there. We can assume that this game has been picked up by every active Commodore user or close to it since it's release. It doesn't need expensive ordeals. We would need an active user base / customer pool of over a million users to make an app store sensible beyond self-publishing and various existing download venues and little post in forums. It has to make sense financially. The idea is interesting but needs a viable user base large enough to make sense as well as cover our legal rear ends as well for commercially sold games to make sure people get paid their share based on legal agreements made. Free stuff is just that free. Those of us who do make new software for Commodore, already knows how to do this. Why would be running such an app store? How long term is the THEC64 guys? Will they last as long or longer than C= USA guys? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment If you been a part of the Commodore community, you'd realize that those developing for the Commodore for the past 20+ years have had no need for an "App Store". We self-published for the most part since that time. The C64 Community isn't that large to warrant the need to invest the expense in creating an App store like the Play Store. We can make it simple and easy for computers running an emulator by downloading it via a modern computer with modern web browser. The Commodore 64 and even THEC64's emulated C64 (the emulator) would not be capable of handling payment processing which per laws and regulations for payment card processing requires very sophisticated encryption/decryption. You can't even use Paypal with the C64. We can not directly handle payment card processing within the C64. You would probably need something akin to those Google Play cards so your money is credited to your account. This might work for a C64 or THEC64 but you won't be able to handle direct payment card processing so that has to be done in a secured fashion that the C64 would not be able to do. Point is, it's a solution looking for a problem to solve that does not currently exist. If the user base was significantly larger, it would possibly make sense. Sure, I can employ an "app store" system with a card code that can be sent securely to your email after purchasing the virtual 'gift card' and credit the amount to the account. After entering the code, the amount would be credited to your account. Then you log into the service from the app tool (that would have to be made) from your C64 (and maybe THEC64 if it has the networking features that you have in VICE) and then select your game and purchase. A method similar to Steam could be used. It's a sophisticated amount of work. I could conceivably employ something like this and make it work on a C64 but herding developers to use the same uniform "app store" is like trying to herd cats. Far easier said than done. While I can do that for my own business but the question is, will the other developers want to use the same system. There is numerous legal things to do it right. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- rldipaolo That's all your own personal point of view on this business, and it's potential. I disagree with some of your assertions in regards to an app store for the C64 Mini being useless. So what's it to you if an app store appears - and fails as you predict? No skin off your nose. Maybe because you already have what you consider to be a competing entity? I agree that this isn't a product primarily for the existing C64 community, which you obviously serve and I commend you for. Yet.... The C64 Mini is, IMHO, primarily for a different market and different users, and you do point that out so I know you agree. So why not just drop the subject and tend to your existing community of users and let me have my "pipe-dreams" of what I think would be beneficial? I'm an adult and I can make my own business judgements. If you are somehow trying to protect someone from making what you consider a "bad" business decision then your warning is duly noted. Even so, I still believe that a C64 Mini app store is a good idea - no amount of debate is going to change my mind. Thanks for your time! Bye. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [6]rldipaolo The people who care about Commodore 8 bit is us. Who are they marketing to? People who don't know about the Commodore 64 and could care less about it as they currently? I'm that same member of the Commodore community then when this computer was mainstream when we had over 6 million active Commodore users world-wide and now. Most of them moved on to newer platforms because the Commodore became obsolete to their needs and they replaced it. Let me explain something about these "App Stores" and DRM and all the legal turf drama that would arise. It would lead to drama and lawsuit threats because what if someone posted a game on the App store and then someone posted a copy of that game on CSDb or maybe it happened to be there for over the past 10 or 20 years but they decided to put it on the site? Will we have this drama and legal threats going around? There is also the difficulty of getting different groups or individual developers to distribute through the same uniform manner. When you are dealing with only a few hundred or even a few thousand possible customers... maybe. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment The App Store, albeit an interesting idea and possibly it might make sense if the moderately active user base (and not just people who had nothing to do with Commodore in 20+ years) was not maybe 10,000 to 15,000 people world-wide but grew two magnitudes of an order larger then yes, I can see this working sensibly. Even one magnitude of an order would be a starting point when sales of individual games rise from maybe 100 to 750 copies to about 1000 to 7500 copies would be a start. We really need to get closer to the 10,000 to 75,000 copies being sold world wide and an app store that would facilitate that to make meaningful sense for not only its cost but for developers to sell copies of their game at anywhere from $2.00 to $20 a copy. Considering it will need a team of people to manage and run this app-store 24/7 and provide round the clock customer service and technical support. If we had internet back in 1987 like we have now, the idea of an App Store would make absolute sense. It would be awesome. After 1997, the Commodore community had lost critical mass to support a meaningful commercial side. After 1997, it was all she wrote. By 2001, CMD closed it's doors on the Commodore 8 bit. After that, Commodore community had rapidly eroded at an accelerated rate and then began to leveled out at a minimal complement of users that are dedicated. What kind of a Commodore user would need a THEC64 Mini? You say its a toy? Yeah, so is the C64 depending on how you look at it. If you're interested in playing the games, why not use what you already have? What? No laptop with HDMI? What the TV doesn't have a VGA connector? What, no DVI connector? What you can't buy a ~$10 VGA output to HDMI Video? Such as on Amazon (dot) com There is also HDMI cables you can buy. Just so you know, C64 Forever minimum system requirement is 750 MHz PC but a single 1 Ghz single core or faster CPU is recommended especially depending on the version of Windows that you are using. RAM: 512 MB minimum RAM but 1 GB or more recommended. Hard Disk space needed: 200 MB free or about but more space is recommended as you build your collection of games. You don't have a computer other than your main computer that doesn't meet these requirements ???? Virtually any Pentium 4 or later computer made in the 21st century would meet this system requirement or a Pentium III with 750 MHz or faster model. I think you got to have something more powerful than that sitting around somewhere that you can place near the TV. Worried about noise, there are solutions for that. If they just want to play the games, they can use a PC with a real surround sound system which by the way would be louder than the fans would be. It isn't like the emulator would be hard working the PC that the sound would be negligible. I probably use more computing resource in using Google Chrome than I would be using the emulator and the only time the fans really kicks up is if I was running a modern PC game. My 1541 made more noise than the fans would be. My dot matrix printer was known to make much more noise than the fans on the computer. That argument of fan noise is a weak one and you knew that. I think they'll be fine playing those games on their PC which more than likely has a screen bigger than a 1702 monitor and even modern LCD TVs. Hell man, PCs, Xbox One and a cluster of other game consoles are often already hooked up to the BIG SCREEN TV in many people's homes. Since the PC is usually running all the time, they'll hear the fan noise anyway (if they have a noisy fan and not replaced the fans with the stealthier double-ball bearing fans or at least clean the fans once in awhile) so why not play the games on their PC on the big screen? They usually already have modern 5.1 or 7.1 Surround Sound systems that supports HDMI input in the first place. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment Back to the point of an App Store, until there is enough users to warrant an App Store, it would be kind of moot and not adopted by the developers in the first place. They have to find the app store appealing in the first place. The only developers for Commodore stuff is people like me, the demo scene, and handful of people making Commodore games these days. Mr. Bayliss for example is one. They would have to change what they already have working for them to something different with risk because those who are making game with any shred of commercial aspect to it is going to be interested in maximizing their proceeds despite how limited it maybe so they have more money to use for their hobby. Do you really think these people who are buying this on the selling point of playing the "old favorites" are looking or even expect there to be any new games being made. Most of them probably don't even know there are new games still being made especially if they had been disconnected from the Commodore 8 bit stuff back in the early 1990s. They wouldn't be customers for us Commodore developers. Why would they? If they haven't thought the name Commodore in like 25 years then why would they think people are making new games? They think it was abandoned over 20 years ago around the time they abandoned the Commodore. An App Store like you are talking about would be important to people who would be using the Commodore with something more than just a nostalgic musing for a weekend and put it away to never be used again by them. The people who look for new games is us who uses the Commodore or Commodore emulators regularly and frequently enough and are part of the active community and take an active effort in keeping track of new things happening for the Commodore 8 bit. They are usually on a forum posting comments, on IRC, and/or are on the BBSs. One way or another, they are frequently keeping connected with the Commodore community. That whole network is maybe 15,000 or so people world-wide at that level. At best, maybe 50,000 or so. It's hard to calculate it but still, they are are going to talk or speak or write somewhere and that makes its way into the internet. That is like a small town or small city. To have a Google Play, Apple App Store or Steam like app store system, you got to have some serious ACTIVE user base that are active on the forums, chat rooms, IRC, and all across the board. Look at any of those platforms for a sense of scale. Basically, the forums and our own online store payment checkout process is all we need. The forums is just to point people to our online stores on our own websites. Use a payment process like Paypal and you're good to go. Point: DON'T PUT THE CART IN FRONT OF THE HORSE. Until you have tangible evidence showing the growth in sales of games from existing developers, increase in size in distinct and unique individuals (not just same person under multiple aliases), and increase in a need for an App Store type of system. One criteria I would expect is the store has to work with real Commodore 64. You probably can't do the payment process directly. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment You have to sell this idea to third-party software/game developers for the C64. While it may distribute using the system, but I am not too optimistic that they would be jumping eagerly to such a system. I've already talked to some and they aren't too eager. They seem to view it as a delusional idea. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- rldipaolo I guess it's a good thing then that I really don't care a bit what "They" think. "They" can be wrong. Many "delusional" ideas in the past have turned out to be overwhelming successes. When you gain the ability to see into the future, then maybe we can discuss this point. Until then it's nothing but your opinion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment I've seen projects much akin to this. Difference being ARM SoC vs an Intel Atom/i5 mini-ITX based system. This is just a mini version of the THEC64 that suppose to come out a little later. THEC64 is also an ARM system and basically the same hardware just in a bigger case with a working keyboard so to speak. It is still an emulator running on a host computer that is NOT a Commodore 64 by any means. About 6 to 7 years ago, a company called Commodore USA lead by Barry Altman introduced a computer called the Commodore 64x (C64x) which ran a flavor of "Linux Mint" called Commodore OS Vision. It also had a C64 Emulator packaged with it. That company also had a handful of other computer models. They were working on introducing an Amiga branded line of computer based upon the Intel i7 chipset with Amiga emulation. I seen this. The chances of major success is slim. In other words, I have seen similar attempts like this made and failed to get that kind of user base. Such an app store opens up and charges of legal issues and lawsuit threats would begin to get energized because under the strictest legal sense, the efforts to preserve the Commodore software for all these years after being effectively abandoned technically violates the U.S. copyright laws because as the laws are written as well as in many countries, it doesn't really have a legal opening because fair use clauses are written narrow enough that it can cause problems because it isn't like an academic research paper with a screenshot of a game that the research paper is written about. Yes, there is a lot of concerns regarding those issues. It's not just the THEC64 team but various holders of the intellectual property rights who have done absolutely nothing to preserve the software and probably don't even have a copy of the game themselves. Their legal teams would smell the money they can rack in by suing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment My point is, lets not jump ahead of the 8 ball. In fact, developers are already using also itch.io for commercial games. It's more than possible to use that but an App Store like Google Play maybe more troublesome. If I were to make such an app store, I would be risking myself and adding fiduciary liability to my own business for third party developers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment For example: There is itch.io which is perfectly fine for releasing games. I like this because it takes care of my European market nicely because it takes care of the VAT/VAT MOSS. stuff and makes life a lot easier. All I have to do is get people notified of my software and provide the URL. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wombstar if they can't get a license for certain games or owners don't want to have them included then maybe they would let them be sold via an app store? Id be willing to pay for some of my favourite games that were not already added to the mini. Is this not a good solution? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wombstar But getting hold of them is the problem, id be quite pay to buy my favourites instead of 'stealing' them from some questionable website. just makes life easier also. Unless i can some how hook my my old c64, i'm not sure how to get the games off the cassettes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [7]Wombstar Make life easier than going to gamebase 64 or csdb or any of those sites and getting the game. Guess what, the people who made or own the games are quite aware of these sites. They haven't done anything because they aren't charging money or claiming and none of the developers of the games are going to make new C64 games or copies from it. For example, EA is still around and holds rights to many games made for C64. They could cause all kinds of trouble but do you think they wouldn't known about these sites after 20 years? Lawyers are the biggest trouble makers not necessarily the company themselves. Don't fear or fret it. If you want the game, just DL it and enjoy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [8]Wombstar Regarding cassettes, I'll post something that can be helpful to you in that task. It is possible. People done it for years. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- [9]Next Page » References Visible links 1. https://community.thec64.com/ 2. http://csdb.dk/ 3. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/3 5. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/4 6. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/8 7. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/19 8. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/19 9. https://community.thec64.com/d/24?page=2&id=24-how-about-a-c64-app-store [1]The C64 Community Loading... This site is best viewed in a modern browser with JavaScript enabled. How about a C64 "app store"? Wombstar Yeah that'll be great. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment Haven't forgotten, just have some priority stuff. You might want to invest in one of these devices like the one below for transferring from a real datasette to an SD card and then transfer to the PC. It is one of the simplest approach. [2]https://www.luigidifraia.com/c64/dc2n/ or [3]https://www.luigidifraia.com/hardware/ You would need a working datasette unit. There are other methods but I may devise a means where you are using the real C64 to transfer the content on a datasette to your PC via some method of the other methods. Datasettes are a little trickier. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment There were multiple methods of doing this. Many of them are old and dated which may not work right on your PC. Finding the right method that is simple enough would be what people would prefer over a fairly technical step by step instruction. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- mix256 Yes, a direct network link to an app store would be awesome. Do it. Do it now. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [4]mix256 Why? How hard is it to look up the name of your favorite game at a place like Gamebase 64 or some of the other websites and download it. Why are you encouraging commercializing games and applications that are already 20 years past its commercial life. If the copyright owners of those games still are interested in selling games for Commodore 64, they would still be selling the games. There are companies that made C64 games that no longer exists and effectively the rights were never transferred. So should we support anyone with dubious claim of licensed software? Some of these games and apps were declared public domain by the owners of the copyright on comp.sys.cbm back in the mid-1990s in the early days of the internet. We want them to renege on that for the smell of a few quick bucks? Do we want to encourage the lawyers of EA and other companies to start initiating lawsuit threats and throwing around DMCA letters and so forth to go after people who had been preserving the software from oblivion when these companies had done ABSOLUTELY nothing to preserve the software. Many of the people who worked on the stuff are retired or doing other things. As for new software/games, there is only a small handful of people making new stuff. There is only about half a dozen "commercial" software/video game developers making video games and software for the C64. In the last 15 years, there has been on average of maybe 1-2 titles made each year or two time frame. They are currently using itch.io. Why don't you go there and get those games? They are made for C64 but also would work on PC/Mac and other platforms with C64 emulator software installed. In essence, we already have it. One reason we are using itch.io is because itch.io is an independent party that functions much like a video game industry version of newegg. It's an online marketplace store platform that we can sell our games through as well as give the games away for free. In short, it also takes care of things like VAT for us so we don't have to fuss around with the value added tax matters ourselves. What an app store essentially is is just an online store for games and applications. Guess what, itch.io does that sufficiently. Itch.io: [5]http://www.itch.io Look for Commodore 64 stuff by using the search query and enter Commodore 64 into it and it should show results for C64. Use the search filter effectively and you should find your favorite titles. If for example you offer the games or apps in a physical boxed package, you can setup your own online store to directly purchase the physical packaged copy from the developers themselves that can be directly linked to from the itch.io page for the game to the developer's store. In a community of our size, it shouldn't be that big of a problem to directly handle that. The number of people seeking floppy disks, datasettes, and/or cartridge version of the games is going to be limited. We don't get 100,000 people buying new C64 games or apps every month or year. No one in the C= community has seen that in like over two decades. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- mix256 What a wall of text. " In the last 15 years, there has been on average of maybe 1-2 titles made each year or two time frame." I am one of those. Why: 1. Because I'm a developer and this is a great way to deliver my games. 2. As a user I want to browse new games with the joystick coming out of the mini64. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [6]mix256 Do you want an app-store that runs on the C64? I could pursue developing it so that it is functional and workable for regular C64 users. Technically, I have a project (well.... more than an online store) that I was working on for castAR which I may pursue a (2-D version) for C64 & C64DTV (with Flyer Internet Modem) and possibly make it work. We would have to have something like a "Wallet" where you may transfer money to via a PC into the 'account' or buy a eGift Card Code and insert the amount to the account. We just can't do payment processing via a C64 or within a C64 emulation because the C64 emulation for all intents and purpose is a "C-64" as far as any application running inside that emulation environment. The C64 just doesn't have the speed to process the encryption/decryption stuff in time. There is fairly tight window of time (on purpose) for this stuff. If you're too slow, it will time-out and transaction will fail. We just can't possibly do this at 1 MHz. There are alternative options that can work. Loading your account up with money then run the app-store inside the emulator (including C64DTV in WinVICE) where we can show case the game. I could conceivably pursue a 2d version of the project that would run on multiple platforms with ease. The project would be a virtual city like UI so you should be able to use a joystick/game pad and so forth. I suppose you can could install that on the THEC64 Mini if you around the way have it launching. I'm not sure if the intent of the design is for the THEC64 Mini to be used for anything other than running the C64 Emulation and playing games inside the C64 emulation environment. To do this outside the C64 emulation, we would need to modify a browser to support moving the cursor from the joystick or game pad instead of just the mouse. You'll need a web browser on this device. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- mix256 The front end showed in the video are more than capable of handing an app store. I don't want one for the real c64 I want one in the mini, at launch. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [7]mix256 That probably won't happen because it would take too much work to do. I'll explain. It's not just making running app on the side running on the THEC64 Mini. You also have the server end. Then you the developers who will be hesitant to run an SDA agreement with them because we would get next to zero from them. What little we get as is from using a site like Itch.io. Heck, we can simply have a short-cut to such website that would auto load up in a web browser and be right at the website. If you use a simple dumb usb hub, you should be able to use a mouse because whatever underlying OS should be able to support generic mouse and keyboard as well as joystick and simple generic USB hubs. It would be easier to modify a browser to support using your joystick instead of a mouse and allow you to go to sites like Itch.io and use the joystick to control the pointer. A simple web browser is all you would need. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- mix256 Stop trolling. It's a great idea. I'm sure everyone would buy Galencia, for instance, in a heartbeat. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [8]mix256 Dude, it's facts. If the Commodore 64 was still a meaningful computer to millions of people throughout the world, wouldn't you think they be on all the Commodore 64 forums and buying software. Hate to break the news, it's not 1980s. I said it isn't going to happen because it takes a team of 5 about 6 months to get it working. Then it will take another 6 months to get it loaded with content from various developers. It would take a good year to develop. Don't forget that the time also includes closed beta testing. It's both a client software and a server side software that has to be done. You want a google Play style app store, it takes a lot of work. It took Google years to develop so why would you expect it to take weeks. In order to be ready for launch by January 2018, this app store would have to be made and completely ready by Halloween. Then it needs to be loaded up with games and apps from the developers. THEC64 Team are going to be trying to milk every dollar but who's pocket do you think that money is going to? Are you wanting 60 to 80% of the profits going to them and maybe you might get 20%. You're thinking this device is going to rake in millions of people buying C64 games after buying this product. If I am not taking home 60-80% of the total profits (which should be 90%-95% of the gross proceeds of the product base price for the digital downloads), as a developer, I should be making the lion's share. I get that through other venues. Unless THEC64 Mini was to bring in 250,000 users into the Commodore community, it makes little to no sense. It takes a user base of that size to make commercial sense. Until we get past the half way point, it would be pre-mature to try to develop something like Google Play store. For the available commercial titles from Protovision, Psytroniks and RGCD, it makes little sense to make a Google Play app store. You need something like 50+ commercial video game developers making this with at least 10-15 titles each to make this sensible. We need like 750 new video games titles and maybe an additional 100 to 250 or so commercial apps. Then maybe a number of original titles or new expanded editions of those titles developed by the copyright holders. Bottom line, we'll need at least 1000 titles to make such an app store sensible. Otherwise, you could just use a web browser and go to itch.io and purchase/download the new games. As for old games that are freely available to be downloaded on the internet since 1995 which is ALL of the commercial Commodore 8-bit from PET-2001 to the last Commodore 8 bit computer... software (games, apps, utilities, etc.) made from 1975 to 1995 or darn near every single one of them. Lets say 99.9+% of the software. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete Completely possible technically to do on this new device, but the issue is viability. The only people who would be able to legally sell would be the owners of the licenses for the software, the vast majority of whom are the Segas and Ataris of the world, particularly for the popular software that would sell. The only people who would be able to buy on the new store would be the owners of this device, limiting the market to the thousands or 10's of thousands. A big company like Sega or Atari has zero interest in selling software for $1 per unit max to a market of 100,000 optimistically. They would make zero profit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [9]Pete The software have been past their commercial viability for like 20 years. Virtually all the period C64 software were produced between 1982 and 1993. The Commodore 8 bit software for the most part would be copyrighted and released between 1977 and 1993. Commercial viability of those 1993 titles ended about 1997. So the commercial life of Commodore software was between 1977 and 1997. It has been over 20 years since those titles had been commercially available. Commodore 8-bit commercial software sided has largely ended in 1997. Since 1997, there has been maybe a half dozen or so that still does stuff in a quasi-commercial level. Since you say you are a developer, you know sales for titles are typically under 1500 copies for any given title. How will your sales increase? Would you spend a good million dollars to set up a "Google-Playstore"-like app store? How much percentage of the proceeds would I be making under the software distribution agreement? For these guys to pay for the cost of making such an app store, they would need to take an awfully huge percentage of the sales proceeds to make their ROI in making the app store. As a developer, would you want to give up 99% of the proceeds you would make on the game because unless they have like 1000 or so developers releasing a title or two or more, we would get very little. The reason itch.io works is because there is not only C= titles but titles for PC, Mac, Linux where you have many other products on that site with something like 40,000 titles as there is also for Steam. If it was me, I would be using itch.io or similar sites because I have a favorable royalty cut. Actually, with itch.io, I can set the amount of the proceeds goes to itch.io. Basically, 30% or less going to the "app store" would be favorable to me. If my share was 30% or less, it would suck big time. If I were to make even $5 per title and sold 1500, that's only $7,500. I rather make $5,250+ over making $2,250 or less. The only thing I really need is a good venue to promote my titles and point them in the right direction to get it not necessarily a "google play store"-like app store. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- mix256 Facts are often referenced, you're just pulling numbers... so you're clearly trolling, but I'm in a biting mood today. You really think anyone doing c64 stuff these days are making any money and doing games for the money? I just want an app store to distribute my games, for free if need be. Let the mini-team do the calculations of viability. An app store with new games and easy access to them could be a selling point. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [10]mix256 How much money do you think Alphabet, Inc. paid in creating Google Play app store? It wasn't cheap. How much do you think it will take to create from scratch an app store? How much do you think the cost in web programming, graphic design, software programming would cost. It would be a good full time job for a team of 5. The salary for individuals that does this work would be averaging around $65,000 to $100,000 a year. Not to mention, you'll need 24/7 network administration, technical/customer support on that alone in addition to other general customer service. This means the operational team is going to be like 12 to 15 individuals, minimal. So we're talking about an increase in employment staff going up 20 or so. That's about $1.5 Million @ $75,000 x 20. The figures will likely range from some under the $75,000 and some over it. The head of Retro Games, Ltd. can't be focused on doing that. He'll have to be running the business. It's a business. This isn't a hobby gig for Darren Melbourne and team. You don't go to this marketing promotion for a hobby that you're only willing to put in less than half-time on average a year. Yes, we developers are not making our games and apps for making money but why would they build an app store for us if we aren't there to make money? Incompatible goals and objectives. Why would they fork out the expense of building and running an app store like Google Play store or other similar app store unless they are going to make money from it. If they aren't going to make it from sales then they will be charging us developers to use it. There would be some kind of fee or subscription or something. If you want the app store so bad, get to work and make the app store. If it's good, I'll support it. You want referenced, I've contacted the developers. I looked at sales records for some titles. I even received feedback on the sales figures. If you can show me that you are selling 10,000+ copies a quarter for any single C64 title on average, I would be impressed. Sources are often provided on IRC and some forums it has been mentioned. Typical sales are not in the thousands so how is that going to make sense to commercially develop an app store. For a commercial business entity/employer to develop this, they would have to hire employees and would be required to pay them according to labor wage laws and industry standards. This isn't C64 coding but coding on a modern hardware platform with a modern language like C++ and Javascript. Those skills has a going rate for salaries in the over $50,000 / year. People with the skills to do this don't work for minimum wage. They work for substantially more than that. They don't take turd offers to work a lot of hours for peanuts. I've done enough Windows PC work over the years to have a general idea of cost to hire people. If I were developing this, I would be charging "Hourly rate based on Industry Standard Salary for the type of work described in scope of work" times 2.5x to 3.5x multiplier for independent contractor consultant software developer work for the BILLED HOURLY RATE. Do the math. If this was just a open source project, that's a different matter altogether. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete [11]ReflectedLightEntertainment Did you even read what I wrote? You just spent a page of writing telling me it wasn't viable - I know it isn't viable - I just posted that? Why are you trying to argue with me it isn't viable? I know that. Read my post again. What you need to learn as a developer is to be brief. Say what you want to say in fewer words. People are not reading what you write because you write too much. Be brief. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [12]Pete Who would be developing it? Why would a commercial business entity such as Retro Games, Ltd. do it? What's in it for them? What's in it for us? How's a new game not written yet going to be pre-loaded on a system today? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete I would totally love to implement an app store on this device. I love solving problems like this, it is easy even with the specs of this device. Of course it still isn't viable but it is a cool tech problem to solve. It doesn't need net or USB access. All possible games are preloaded, C64 games are tiny and flash RAM is relatively cheap. You unlock the games by entering a code on the system using the joystick. Codes are keyed by device ID and game. You buy codes on the normal internet using a normal web browser and storefront. When you purchase a code one is generated using your device ID (which you have registered) and game. You then enter this into the device. Too easy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete I’ve said multiple times it isn’t viable financially - but this thread is about an App Store and it is an interesting problem to solve technically - I make a living solving technical problems. It isn’t going to happen on this device because it isn’t commercially viable, it isn’t the market they are aiming at and they have probably already loaded all the games that they are licensed to use. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [13]Pete Albeit, it would be an interesting problem to solve technically, if the developers by general consensus have no need. I said earlier, it is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist. It is a solution for a need that as a community, we do not yet need. As I said, it would be putting the cart before the horse. We have to see a serious growth trend which I do not see. How are people who buy the product from store shelves get connected with the community. All those C64DTV sales could have meant something but the manner of how it was sold did not funnel those people to Commodore forums and sites to connect them and facilitating making them part of the Commodore community. They kept it separate in such a way that these people just buy the item like they buy cheap Chinese products for the short-term consumption and throw it in the closet (you get the point). They weren't building the Commodore community and how are this building the Commodore community. What's going to encourage them to seek out more games from the Commodore community? How are they going to be directed to us and to the community at large. I support it as an emulator platform for C64 emulation. I'm okay with that. Will Retro Games, Ltd. help to encourage customers of this product to further embrace the Commodore community and learning of the Commodore platform? How are they going to make them longer term customers & as long term users. 64 games will probably hold their attention for about a couple weekends to maybe a month if any of the games holds their attention long enough. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass " Unless THEC64 Mini was to bring in 250,000 users into the Commodore community " To be honest I haven't seen much of the current Commodore 64 community here. Certainly not ones I know anyway which is a little disconcerting. This place should be on fire right now with them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- [14]« Previous Page [15]Next Page » References Visible links 1. https://community.thec64.com/ 2. https://www.luigidifraia.com/c64/dc2n/ 3. https://www.luigidifraia.com/hardware/ 4. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/27 5. http://www.itch.io/ 6. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/29 7. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/31 8. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/33 9. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/34 10. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/36 11. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/37 12. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/38 13. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/43 14. https://community.thec64.com/d/24?page=1&id=24-how-about-a-c64-app-store 15. https://community.thec64.com/d/24?page=3&id=24-how-about-a-c64-app-store [1]The C64 Community Loading... This site is best viewed in a modern browser with JavaScript enabled. How about a C64 "app store"? ReflectedLightEntertainment [2]Pete Albeit, it would be an interesting problem to solve technically, if the developers by general consensus have no need. I said earlier, it is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist. It is a solution for a need that as a community, we do not yet need. As I said, it would be putting the cart before the horse. We have to see a serious growth trend which I do not see. How are people who buy the product from store shelves get connected with the community. All those C64DTV sales could have meant something but the manner of how it was sold did not funnel those people to Commodore forums and sites to connect them and facilitating making them part of the Commodore community. They kept it separate in such a way that these people just buy the item like they buy cheap Chinese products for the short-term consumption and throw it in the closet (you get the point). They weren't building the Commodore community and how are this building the Commodore community. What's going to encourage them to seek out more games from the Commodore community? How are they going to be directed to us and to the community at large. I support it as an emulator platform for C64 emulation. I'm okay with that. Will Retro Games, Ltd. help to encourage customers of this product to further embrace the Commodore community and learning of the Commodore platform? How are they going to make them longer term customers & as long term users. 64 games will probably hold their attention for about a couple weekends to maybe a month if any of the games holds their attention long enough. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete [3]ReflectedLightEntertainment You spend an awful lot of time agreeing with me. I imagine the person/people making this device doesn't give a fig about the existing C64 community. I don't either. It is clear that this device is for people who like playing C64 games and want to make no more technical effort than plugging an HDMI cable into their TV. The "communities" are not those people. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trinket A huge issue around app stores is DRM. Will they try to prevent people buying and then spreading the purchased software? Will they try to disallow side loading programs into the Linux side of the device, which can potentially poke into the app store storage? They're already taking a hard stance here against community links that might hold copyright-violating content, but the entire post-CBM C64 community is based on copyright violation of old crusty ROMs, disk & tape images, and books. Again, trying to integrate commercially licensed IP with retrocomputing communities floats around being legally dangerous to hypocritical. The only 2 options that an app store could exist under is if they try to lock it down to make IP owners happy, or accept that it's on the honor system and people are going to continue on with the norms of the community in dealing freely with the dead IPs, with not-so-dead IPs ending up being treated in the same way by some. Just look at the number of posts here asking to have all the C64 library added to the device. People don't care about copyright. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass [4]Trinket They're already taking a hard stance here against community links that might hold copyright-violating content, but the entire post-CBM C64 community is based on copyright violation of old crusty ROMs, disk images, and books. Apparently THEC64 is allowing you to add games which I assume does not mean sticking your old cassette into the usb port. With this in mind I think its clear what everyone will do. There does appear to be a couple of double standards here I have noticed -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trinket Yes, let's see what happens when inevitably an article in some major video gaming publication talks about how easy it is to pirate software in this legally licensed device that's for sale, from a company seeking to legally license software to include. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass Actually from the dates online it looks like there is only one mod ? How many people are actually involved in this project any idea. Is this a one man band ? It feels like one man doing a lot of juggling and getting on here when he can. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass [5]Pete I imagine the person/people making this device doesn't give a fig about the existing C64 community I don't either. That much I have worked out myself. Which is great if its a one off for its pledgers and campaigners [6]Pete It is clear that this device is for people who like playing C64 games Which unfortunately does happen to be the community and lets not forget this is only to help fund the bigger campaign so just breaking even isn't really an option. Anyway what's so wrong with the 64 Community ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [7]Pete Perhaps but the question.... who's going to make such 'app store'? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trinket [8]Pete The game images included with this device are almost certainly going to be ripped from the community cracked & spread versions, with permission from the rights holders. That's exactly what happened with the C64 DTV. These classic rights holders likely don't have the original binaries, and certainly aren't able to build modified versions from original sources. If you care about side loading extra games onto it, where do you think those will magically spring from? It's all the work of the C64 community, specifically the preservationists, emulator authors, and yes even crackers that enable any of this, making runnable .d64 versions of old protected floppies and the open source emulation tech to ensure they execute properly. Plus, as quatermass implied, a large chunk of the current C64 community simply downloads and plays games on their emulators, or gets enough of a real setup to download & play games there. There isn't some independent second C64 community lurking around that you can somehow distance from all of this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [9]quatermass "That much I have worked out myself. Which is great if its a one off for its pledgers and campaigners" I don't know the individuals deeply enough. I wouldn't say they don't give a fig about the existing C64 community exactly. I wouldn't say they see the C64 community as such that would pass muster for investment money that they most certainly would be using beyond the money from the crowdfunding campaign. Those VC investors probably don't give a fig. Aside from that, I agree with you. I've personally communicated with Darren Melbourne before. He hasn't really been a central figure in the Commodore community or in the part of the community involved in developing stuff for the C64 platform or even in the development of C64 emulation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete [10]Trinket How do you know they don't have the original binaries? The scene images are loaded down with demos and unpackers and trainers etc. The ones on the device will be clean. I don't care about sideloading extra games onto it. The app store is an interesting technical problem though. I like interesting technical problems. My interest in the device is that the ROMS are legal and licensed. I certainly won't be sideloading anything. I'm sure the existing C64 community does download and play on emulators. I do that. But this initial device is probably aimed at users who have no technical interest at all and just want to plug it into their TV and play games on it. I didn't say that there was a community of these users somewhere? They're just another market. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass [11]Pete How do you know they don't have the original binaries? The scene images are loaded down with demos and unpackers and trainers etc. The ones on the device will be clean Highly unlikely considering Cloanto also use cracked community games in their products like C64 Forever, Amiga Forever. I have them both. Personally like Trinket says they will probably use community versions. But this could be the exception you never know. Its quite ironic really even when we buy legal products we can end up actually buying pirated cracked games [12]:) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trinket [13]Pete We know they don't have the originals because people have scoured for these sorts of things for decades, from publishers' back rooms and internal digital archives to developers' attics & estate sales. It's always a major event when things like original development notes or source code pop up because these things are generally long lost. Storage was EXPENSIVE back then, so we didn't have the same kind of backups and archives that exist today. Neither the source nor output binaries were kept around in central, permanent storage. These products were shuffled through the market with a pretty short life span, with no thought to preservation or re-releases. Especially because there were so many incompatible platforms being released so quickly, if there were to be a sequel or new port, it would be a rewrite anyway. Even when the same game was simultaneously released for multiple platforms, they were usually independent rewrites. These publishers were small and often not involved in the actual software development, but just advertised & shipped software from whomever happened to write it, quickly moving on to the next product and only dealing with the present. Additionally, it's a lot easier to remove intros than to re-crack originals, because of the way intros are linked: They disappear and let the game run clean after the intro ends. Even in some unicorn scenario with all the original source code, it'd still be way harder to try to replicate the original build environments (many of which relied on obscure hardware) to then reengineer it without copy protection. Again, the most obvious precedent was the DTV, where they used cracked versions, pirating the pirates' work which went into making the games .d64 compatible, and then profiting from it. [14]:) The only way these images will be "clean" is because the pirates did the much harder work of cleaning out the copy protection first from the original protected binaries. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [15]quatermass First, the companies who owns the copyrights to these games such as EA, don't have their original C= era equipment for producing these games. Those stuff have long been discarded. The original programmers are in their late 50s, 60s and into their 70s or even 80s. They wouldn't be tasked to make fresh copies of those games. They don't do the programming anymore. Those tasks are done by younger 20 something year olds, and those in their 30s. Once you're in your 40s, you are either promoted to project director type roles (ie. supervisory/management roles) or you get booted and replaced by younger people. Most of their skills in programming languages that are now esoteric is not useful to a company producing games and applications on contemporary computers. They are taken away from the role of programming to supervising and directing the programming team if they continue to retain you. At this point, the community already have made perfect copies of the factory produced disks. They are perfect copies because they have not been altered in any way or form from the programming. Some of these games are written using machine language monitor. The source code IS the program. Some of them used languages like PL/I, Algol, Pascal, BCPL, and some other languages. By large, there was still a lot of games and apps written in 65xx ML (via Assembly language or an ML Monitor). In general, people are taught to program in those languages anymore. They are no longer used. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [16]Trinket It's easier to just copy the original disks to D64 images. We have tools that does this and even safely copy disks with copy protection schemes without losing the copy protection scheme on the copy. This was already been done many years ago. True, you can rip out the crack intro or you can take Maverick or Fast Hack'em and other tools that were made to copy the disks even with their copy protection scheme if necessary. Basically, people have already made perfect copies of the factory produced disks that consumers got from the stores originally. That's the copy that people are looking for to relive their younger days. As for finding the developer's source code, developer notes, graph paper depiction of on-screen display, sketches, etc. are all big finds from a preservation collection perspective. They will be unnecessary for backing up the factory production because the factory master copy of the disks has the same content as the copies produced and put on the store shelves to buy. Unlike analog magnetic recorded medium, digital content are duplicated perfectly (from a practical perspective). Sure, the quality of the media might be a little different but not enough to matter. While there are d64 copies of the "cracked" versions of the games, there are also d64 containing perfect (unaltered) copies of the factory disks. This have been largely been done before the C64DTV was released. Add to this, lets not forget that the lead of this project is the same Darren Melbourne of Ironstone Partners that was leading the development of the C64DTV. While Jeri Ellsworth was the engineer that designed the hardware, she was contracted by Darren Melbourne et al to work on the C64DTV project. The only thing they may have done better is looked for d64 copies of the games that didn't have crack intros on it. Basically, perfect copies of the factory disks on d64. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass [17]ReflectedLightEntertainment While there are d64 copies of the "cracked" versions of the games, there are also d64 containing perfect (unaltered) copies of the factory disks. Not many though. Otherwise Cloanto would probably have preferred to use these seeing they were sold with the C64 Forever but instead they are mostly cracked versions with intro's -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [18]quatermass Actually, about 95% of the titles are. I don't want to rationalize Cloanto's decisions but those titles were already on the C64Forever since the first version where they included it. I know because I seen copies of those games that don't include crack intros. Sure, they are "pirated" copies but don't forget that the factory disks were copies of a copy of the original copy that were on the developer's computers. Those masters were mostly recorded on standard blank disks you bought at the stores that would be write protected by using electrical vinyl tape or some opaque sticker wrapped around the notches. They didn't use any fancy disks. The only 'fancy' disks were the write-protected floppy disks that were not pre-notched. They were called write-protected blank disks. This was chosen by companies like EA and some of the bigger more successful studios for the commercial produced copies. All these programs have been made copies of using maverick or fast hack'em or some of the other tools. Then there are D64 images of them somewhere. They might not have bothered to look for "clean" copies of those titles. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trinket [19]Pete Oh come on with the "logic" farce and fantasy talk. Nobody is saying that the final game data itself is lost. You want legal, ethical, originally-sourced & sanctioned copies, and that's where the issues start. Obviously the publishers and the small development houses, in the vast majority case don't have their originals. Neither final master disks, nor source materials. Floppies don't last forever, especially developer floppies that are constantly being overwritten, and the luxury-priced hard drives were still error-prone. Things were discarded when new platforms came out, or companies moved on. It makes gaming news when such materials are found (Prince of Persia being one that comes to mind), and yes those are literally found from scouring attics. You simply don't know what goes on in this world if you don't know that. So, binaries would generally have to be reclaimed from the media that was sold to the public. BUT those reclaimed images would not be applicable for a "plug and play" device like this if they have copy protection. (The only fantasy legal/ethical case is that if the sources were magically still available, they would have to be effectively reengineered to get a "clean" version.) I don't care how "trivial" you think it is (hint: it's not, and there were actually few legit skilled crackers), you're still talking about cracking dozens of games for release. So they turn to pirate copies. De-intro'ing existing cracks is trivial in actual real life, not just fantasy claim "trivial." This is the factual documented reality of exactly what's happened with every major "legal" re-release of C64 software collections that I'm aware of. You can't just claim to want clean, legal, ethical copies and deny the reality of where these "legal" copies actually come from. And this THEC64 project is from the same team which used cracked versions from pirates for the DTV. Cloanto did the same and they're the central copyright claim around the Commodore 8-bit IP. I'm not a betting person, but I'd still bet a lot of money that games on this device will be sourced from pirated versions. That's the consistent evidence from prior runs, and there's no reason to believe this will be any different. [20]ReflectedLightEntertainment Remember that even for plain .d64-able disks, some copy protection still involved looking up codes in the manual. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass Just thinking, many of the games had cracks and intro's by Jack Alien This required you to press the "Runstop Key" rather than the fire button to continue and as the Mini does not have a keyboard then this would be a problem so I would assume your right and may well use the cleaner versions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete What poor logic some of you people use, and over pages of writing. In particular, don't use false logic. Do not imply that a specific case is therefore the general case. Just because some people have lost their original images doesn't mean that all the original versions of every piece of C64 software ever made has lost an original image. I agree keeping a archive of all C64 software and music is a noble cause, but to imply that this archive is the only source for these images is false. C64 software is not a lost episode of a television series like Dr Who. People are not scouring attics looking for lost C64 images to put on this device. Your fantasy is not reality. If I wanted to get an original software image back because I was a developer that had lost my original images, I would go to ebay and buy and dump a d64 or t64 image. There are tons there of every major piece of C64 software, still available. Copy protection is trivial. If one 50 year old programmer has been promoted to management, it does not mean that every programmer that is 50 years old in the world has been promoted to management. It does not mean the skill of C64 development has been lost forever to the echelons of management or time. There are tons of C64 devs in the world who are still at it. I can still pick it up easily. Storage was not expensive back in the day in this industry. C64 was the pioneering movement of indie game developers. They wrote these games on their home equipment and stored it on the same 5.25 inch floppies. Do not use companies like EA as an example. They will monetise and legalise to make it too impractical to put these licenses on the devices. Smaller companies are the ones licensing the software for this device to release - Hewson, System 3. If you want to perpetuate your fantasies, well then I accept that you want to do that and I'm OK with that. But don't try to convince me that your fantasies are reality!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [21]Pete True, not every 50 year old but they usually get laid off and no longer work for the companies and also would have no legal authority over the copyrighted content because they signed that away either by contract or because they were employees and the work is a work for hire. Either way, those were signed off. When some of the companies folded and were sold off, many of them had lost the rights to the stuff and over the years left the industry altogether or in some cases passed on. Bottom line: A lot has happened. Most of the Commodore computers ever manufactured had already went into the landfill a long time ago. Some of them, before Commodore went bankrupt. Most of the skills has been lost from those companies because those people are no longer employed and people haven't been generally employed for their C64 skills. The skills are now mostly in the hands of people who don't work in the video game industry but in tertiary jobs for their day to day living but does this for a hobby. There is still a handful but they don't work for EA or Hewson or any of the studios. They have their own company. There is like only small number of developers in the C64 community that I know that runs a business developing software for modern PC. They are their own proprietors. They usually don't work as an employee. They wouldn't be tasked to do this work. Yes, they wrote games on their own equipment but guess what, they didn't keep up on using the Commodore. If there is any of the stuff, it would be probably misfiled in a box buried in a garage or attic or closet. Even if they were to find their equipment, they have the last 20+ years to catch up on how to transfer their stuff on disks to PC. The Commodore community already made backups of nearly every C64 software ever. There are both clean copies as well as ones with crack intros. It doesn't matter because, it has been done. Why would they go through the hassle if they don't need to. In all that time, those disks have a probability of disk rot and other degradation so it's integrity maybe at risk. Since the factory produced copies would be perfect copies of the "master copies" produced from the developer to the disk production 'factories'. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [22]Trinket I don't think I was disagreeing with that. What was usually done is a method of full disk image copying but point was alot of that has been done already by a number of individuals over the past 20+ years. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- [23]« Previous Page [24]Next Page » References Visible links 1. https://community.thec64.com/ 2. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/43 3. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/45 4. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/46 5. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/50 6. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/50 7. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/50 8. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/50 9. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/51 10. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/54 11. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/55 13. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/55 15. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/56 16. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/57 17. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/59 18. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/60 19. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/63 20. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/61 21. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/63 22. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/64 23. https://community.thec64.com/d/24?page=2&id=24-how-about-a-c64-app-store 24. https://community.thec64.com/d/24?page=4&id=24-how-about-a-c64-app-store [1]The C64 Community Loading... This site is best viewed in a modern browser with JavaScript enabled. How about a C64 "app store"? ReflectedLightEntertainment [2]Trinket I don't think I was disagreeing with that. What was usually done is a method of full disk image copying but point was alot of that has been done already by a number of individuals over the past 20+ years. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [3]Pete True, not every 50 year old but they usually get laid off and no longer work for the companies and also would have no legal authority over the copyrighted content because they signed that away either by contract or because they were employees and the work is a work for hire. Either way, those were signed off. When some of the companies folded and were sold off, many of them had lost the rights to the stuff and over the years left the industry altogether or in some cases passed on. Bottom line: A lot has happened. Most of the Commodore computers ever manufactured had already went into the landfill a long time ago. Some of them, before Commodore went bankrupt. Most of the skills has been lost from those companies because those people are no longer employed and people haven't been generally employed for their C64 skills. The skills are now mostly in the hands of people who don't work in the video game industry but in tertiary jobs for their day to day living but does this for a hobby. There is still a handful but they don't work for EA or Hewson or any of the studios. They have their own company. There is like only small number of developers in the C64 community that I know that runs a business developing software for modern PC. They are their own proprietors. They usually don't work as an employee. They wouldn't be tasked to do this work. Yes, they wrote games on their own equipment but guess what, they didn't keep up on using the Commodore. If there is any of the stuff, it would be probably misfiled in a box buried in a garage or attic or closet. Even if they were to find their equipment, they have the last 20+ years to catch up on how to transfer their stuff on disks to PC. The Commodore community already made backups of nearly every C64 software ever. There are both clean copies as well as ones with crack intros. It doesn't matter because, it has been done. Why would they go through the hassle if they don't need to. In all that time, those disks have a probability of disk rot and other degradation so it's integrity maybe at risk. Since the factory produced copies would be perfect copies of the "master copies" produced from the developer to the disk production 'factories'. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- krasse It would be interesting to try and set up a store where new and old content could be sold. Then the copyright holders could just decide whether to include the games/applications or not with the revenue model set up accordingly. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass You have to ask the question though. Irrelevant of the mini this could have been done years ago for the whole emulation community so it begs the question why it wasn't. Nintendo did it though for the Wii's virtual console with c64 games. Last Ninja was available for sure but I cant remember if they charged for them ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [4]quatermass I rather there be something that is usable by the WHOLE Commodore community, not just on the emulation but also on the real hardware users with suitable networking hardware. Since there is already networking hardware that would allow internet access with real Commodore 8-bit equipment, an adaption of the "client"-side could be made for real equipment. Perhaps, you can load your "app store wallet" with a PC but purchase and download with the real Commodore equipment or also via the emulator equipment. Say, we take the C64DTV (with a Flyer Internet Modem) or C64DTV emulation (via VICE emulator) and you can have 8bpp images as the "ad flyer" for the game or app you select to view. Then you have a "button" to buy/download using cash in wallet. The amount in wallet could be displayed. What we want to avoid is having a bunch of senseless DRM b.s. I have been considering something along the lines but for my own stuff not so much for a open multi-vendor "app store" due to certain financial related concerns such as proper financial security of people's "wallets". Basically, there would have to be something like an escrow account or otherwise, separate accounts and very tight management of financial transactions. At what point are we becoming a "financial institution"? What if there was a screw up and some people lose their money in the app store "wallet"? Will they sue? Add to that, transactions of sales involving a buyer and a seller, and we're in the middle as the platform facilitating the sales transactions. What is our liability? It's not just a customer vs. us. It could be also a seller vs. us. What liability insurance coverage are we going to need to have in the event there is a possible screw up, a hack or whatever that may happen. Is that something an indie developer want to stick themselves into? Is that a risk one would want to take? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass As far as I'm concerned just leave things as they are. The mini comes with 64 games. You can apparently add your own games or at least play them via USB. Although I feel the Devs realise this as an advantage which totally contradicts their policy on being squeaky clean or the feature would not be implemented. Lets face it. No one has ever, EVER been prosecuted for playing a C64 game on vice or an Amiga game on Winuae Its a win win situation for the mini. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [5]quatermass As for developers of new games, we have various C64 related forums and an online store such as itch.io where you can buy our 'quasi-commercial' games and applications while we may have our free non-commercial works posted on numerous sites such as CSDb and other sites. All we have to do as developers is let the 'users' know about it and point them in the direction to get our titles. At this point in time, that is sufficient. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass [6]ReflectedLightEntertainment At this point in time, that is sufficient. Agreed. Richard Bayliss for example has written hundreds of pretty good C64 games and they are all free [7]:) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- mix256 [8]ReflectedLightEntertainment All we have to do as developers is let the 'users' know about it And how exactly are you going to do that? So, no, we need an app store. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass After watching the Milan Video for about the 10th time that menu is really pretty slick. I really hope the games are instant loading like the C64DTV ( without intros etc ) After a few pauses and studying the menu that's an awesome job !! The more I watch it the more I want it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [9]mix256 Mention it in forums including this.... provide a link to where people can download it or purchase it or purchase & download. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- mix256 [10]ReflectedLightEntertainment Mention it in forums including this.... Most of the buyers of this won't even come to this forum, let alone any other c64 forum, No, we need an app store. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass [11]mix256 Most of the buyers of this won't even come to this forum, let alone any other c64 forum, No, we need an app store. Once they realise you can add your own games or play them via USB then they will have to learn like we all did. Not everything in life is handed on a plate. And that's another good lesson for todays generation [12]:) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [13]mix256 Who's going to be going out to buy new C64 games? Sure, if we want to spend a 10+ million dollars for TV advertising and advertising on the air. What store chain is going to purchase hundred thousand copies of new C64 games to sell through their stores. You say we need an App Store? How are they going to find out about the app store in the first place? You say, include it in this system but that would be something that could be included in package with emulators. Ok, so what. There's a facebook C64/128 group with over 11K people connected to it. I can surely post there as well as on the forums. There's no such thing as venture capitalists for new Commodore 64 software. Commercial side of Commodore 64 development has been effectively dead for over 20 years except for the part-time hobbyist indie devs who does this just for the joy of it not for the money. The people who would buy new Commodore software are already on the various forums and associated user's groups. Sure, I can connect with all the known channels with the same basic core message and basically cross-post that information all over the place for maximum coverage but I have to focus on the groups of people who would be most likely to be inclined. There is no way I would risk my business marketing C64 games via high expense global marketing campaign. The simple truth is not enough people are interested in buying new stuff on an old obsolete computer platform. The majority of people interested in products like this are people who are interested in reliving their younger days playing their favorite OLDIES. They want to experience the games they remembered not so much about new stuff. If they wanted something new, they buy games for their new modern computers. Commodore 64 were originally in 15 MILLION to 18 Million households (average house hold size was about 3-5 individuals) out of the estimated 22 Million C64 computers made because most people only bought 1 to 2 Commodore 64's per household. Back then, it wasn't the norm to have a computer in every room. There was usually only 1 computer per household. Assuming some percentages were replacements for machines that failed. By 2004, world-wide, there was only maybe 5 individuals on the planet that exclusively uses Commodore 64. One of them, I knew of, passed away. There wasn't that kind of fanatical hard core C64 users that continued into the 21st century. Once activity around GEOS ended and when Maurice Randall and other GEOS developers either left the Commodore community or became inactive along the end of Loadstar, CMD, and other stuff, people decided it was time to move on. The majority of the die-hard users that were still using C64 in the mid-90s decided by 2000 that it was time to move onto new platforms for their day to day stuff. The incentives and influences that kept them exclusively on the C64 ended by the end of the 20th century. A lot of people decided after Commodore's demise to move on to Windows, Linux, Mac and PPC Amiga platform and later other platforms. Those that were most die hard had already moved to modern systems for their day to day computing needs. They still make stuff for the old platform but as a hobby. I question the rationale for an app store when it is still unknown if people would even hear of the app store in the first place. Ask yourself, who would learn about it? One argument is, get Retro Games Ltd. to put the app store app on the computer. Why not have that same app store app on the other emulators out there. You say most of the buyers won't even come to this forum. Yeah, it's a little late to get the app store app on the platform. How will it pay for itself? How will it benefit the Retro Games Ltd. ? How will it benefit the game developers? How will the app store make a complete return on its investment? How long will it take to do so? Sure, I can post it on Slashdot and other venues on the mainstream. Sure, it can be used to draw attention. There are different venues that can be used to catch attention here and there. There is different avenues. In every case, there is ways to spread the news about a release. What any of us are striving for is the low hanging fruit that doesn't cost a great ordeal of expense to make connection to the people who would be likely your customers. How likely is it to get enough attention that translates to purchases from people who haven't been associated with Commodore platform in 20+ years or those who never had been in any way or form associated with computing of that time period. Most of us who grew up during that time period are older now and are more likely to have very different priorities in life. The reason I suggested C64 forums is because that's where the majority of people who are active with Commodore computer that would be your first line of customers because they are the ones that would be frequently keeping up on what is happening in the world of Commodore 64 software, games, and demos. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- mix256 [14]ReflectedLightEntertainment How are they going to find out about the app store in the first place? OMG! Stop trolling. It's in the definition of an app store - you have it in front of you, right there in the mini when you start it up. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass [15]mix256 OMG! Stop trolling. It's in the definition of an app store - you have it in front of you, right there in the mini when you start it up. So are you saying now they have to fit all the minis with Wireless or Network devices to enable internet from the mini to this app store from the C64 Menu in the first place ? Seriously ... Think about what your saying . Sigh !! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [16]mix256 If I was distributing software through this app store, I want the same kind of share of the proceeds as I would on itch.io. If the so called app store operating is taking too much of the proceeds, it makes no sense to me. It is one thing to not expect to be rich, it is another thing to basically hand over whatever you can make to the app store operators. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- mix256 [17]quatermass So are you saying now they have to fit all the minis with Wireless or Network devices It's already there. Sigh. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass [18]mix256 It's already there. Sigh. Wireless and internet. Really ? Ok then. That's incredible as it hasn't been announced not even in the full size .. USB only for updates and firmware upgrades. Not even dial up sorry . -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [19]quatermass They had to include ethernet support in order for you to be able to get updates. Add to that, this "banana pi"/"raspberry pi" like mobo would have ethernet/wifi support. This doesn't mean that the ethernet/wifi aspect works from within the emulation. To use USB for updates, they would have to mail USB thumbsticks or you have to use a USB ethernet/wifi dongle. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass [20]ReflectedLightEntertainment To use USB for updates, they would have to mail USB thumbsticks or you have to use a USB ethernet/wifi dongle. Just like my motherboard I can go to the website and download a firmware upgrade to a usb stick. We have been doing that for years. If the c64 mini has no OS then you can shove as many Wi-Fi USB,s in it as you like, Its not going to install !! It has already been announced Firmware and updates are USB Only . There is no internet. Here is the Official Response .. " We are happy to confirm that firmware and software upgrades will be possible via the USB ports, to allow more functions to be added to the THEC64 Mini in the future. " Just contact the devs via the link above for confirmation, I don't know why this is such an issue , The snes mini had no internet or the ability to run other games. What we have via usb is a bonus. Perhaps they may add an internet function at some point but right now it isn't implemented. Although to be honest I have no idea what possible firmware upgrades would be required . If it runs the games on board then you got what you paid for ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- [21]« Previous Page [22]Next Page » References Visible links 1. https://community.thec64.com/ 2. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/64 3. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/63 4. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/68 5. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/70 6. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/71 8. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/71 9. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/74 10. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/75 11. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/76 13. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/76 14. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/78 15. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/79 16. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/79 17. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/80 18. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/81 19. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/82 20. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/84 21. https://community.thec64.com/d/24?page=3&id=24-how-about-a-c64-app-store 22. https://community.thec64.com/d/24?page=5&id=24-how-about-a-c64-app-store [1]The C64 Community Loading... This site is best viewed in a modern browser with JavaScript enabled. How about a C64 "app store"? ReflectedLightEntertainment You say this is has a menu system. Ok. But is that menu just the front end of the emulator much like the one that is part of the C64Forever pack. I saw a video that shows that but we are talking about adding a store app to that front end. No f---ing way am I going to tie up 70 or 80 or 100 percent of proceeds of my games and apps to a set of people who has no clue or understanding of how to run and manage an app store. No one on their team has any experience in creating and running an app store business. Nintendo, sure. I have a developer relationship with as well as others. The only kind of program I would distribute is a free client to a C64 multiplayer online game that ties into my own server item mall but this means their C64 emulation would need to support networking like VICE. If it doesn't, then no. I want my money that I charge and I don't know if these people have any understanding of how to do this properly and not suck up all the proceeds for them running their app store server. I wouldn't want them restricting my ability to distribute my games and apps on other venues as well. If they are too restrictive from which I would be signing away too much for no measurable gain for myself, I would be a bit peeved. This product also has to be successful. I don't want all this DRM / DMCA related shenanigans making it difficult for making backup copies and such. If I wanted to do that, I make it for the C-128 with VDC on a physical modified easy flash 3 cartridge modded for C-128 use along with other fun stuff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass [2]ReflectedLightEntertainment To use USB for updates, they would have to mail USB thumbsticks or you have to use a USB ethernet/wifi dongle. Just like my motherboard I can go to the website and download a firmware upgrade to a usb stick. We have been doing that for years. If the c64 mini has no OS then you can shove as many Wi-Fi USB,s in it as you like, Its not going to install !! It has already been announced Firmware and updates are USB Only . There is no internet. Here is the Official Response .. " We are happy to confirm that firmware and software upgrades will be possible via the USB ports, to allow more functions to be added to the THEC64 Mini in the future. " Just contact the devs via the link above for confirmation, I don't know why this is such an issue , The snes mini had no internet or the ability to run other games. What we have via usb is a bonus. Perhaps they may add an internet function at some point but right now it isn't implemented. Although to be honest I have no idea what possible firmware upgrades would be required . If it runs the games on board then you got what you paid for ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ReflectedLightEntertainment [3]quatermass They would have an OS because if there wasn't one, the emulator wouldn't work. The facilities would typically be included with the A20 SoC and usually a Realtek ethernet IC or possibly use one of the many other facilities for some degree of WiFi access. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- quatermass [4]ReflectedLightEntertainment They would have an OS because if there wasn't one, the emulator wouldn't work. My mistake as far as that goes then ... I was led to believe this was firmware driven ? So does it have an HDD or SD Storage device then for the OS ? So much we don't know yet [5]:( -------------------------------------------------------------------------- [6]« Previous Page References Visible links 1. https://community.thec64.com/ 2. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/84 3. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/86 4. https://community.thec64.com/d/24/87 6. https://community.thec64.com/d/24?page=4&id=24-how-about-a-c64-app-store